Kiss has a great presentation, a great gimmick, cool album covers, even the band name is cool. And then there’s music…..that’s where things go downhill. The original band were average musicians at best, which is kind of a shame because their music had the right attitude. Unfortunately, most of their songs get old fast due to the lack of musical skill. I like a handful of their songs, but as a whole, their catalog doesn’t impress me. Kiss is to music what the Ultimate Warrior was to wrestling, great look, so-so to lousy talent. Yeah, they ripped off Alice Cooper’s make-up gimmick, but luckily for Alice, he is a talented (albeit underrated) songwriter and didn’t rely as heavily on ‘look’. Coop, wisely would act out a song on stage, intertwining the music and performance.
Kiss relies heavily on ‘look’ whatever it takes to distract from the music. At this point, Kiss isn’t about putting out quality music (I don’t think they ever were), but it’s about making money off an established name. It’s everything rock and roll shouldn’t be.
Look doesn’t matter when you are at home listening to a CD…..
I think John G is missing the point in regard to influence and HOF merit. Any great musician isn’t going to just “sound like” their influence or mentors, but rather take from that and create something original and their own. So many great bands and members of their respective bands don’t directly sound like who it was that really influenced or inspired them. Quite possibly the best argument for this is Dimebag. Here you have a guy that is generally regarded as the greatest and most influential guitarist of the modern metal era that sounds nothing like Ace Frehley, yet there was a reason Dime was buried in a Kiss casket. The bottom line is the HOF is a joke just in its namesake alone since it covers all genres of music, not just the rock genres. Another thing is to be a sort of HOF level performer, even in a legitimate hall of fame, one can’t look at just musicianship and not really much else. It’s a multi-faceted thing that requires greatness in a number of areas such as the influence thing we spoke of, impact, creativity, innovation, body of work, longevity, album sales, and achievements along the way. Clearly Zeppelin is the gold standard for this criteria and what exemplifies what a hall of fame level band is, but let’s face it, Zeppelin are also in a class by themself. There are certainly a number of other bands that have had their share of the criteria standards I mentioned, but if the HOF adhered to those principles, even if it were exclusively “rock ‘n’ roll” based acts, the HOF would be slim in numbers compared to who they currently have in there. I agree there should be more influence on the musicianship aspect than what’s given; however, it shouldn’t be all that’s really considered either. If so, it would be criminal for Yngwie Malmsteen to not already be in there. In fact, Yngwie fits most of the other criteria and should probably be inducted. Back to the Kiss thing and their music, Kiss has always been one of the most underrated bands for their catalog. The problem is the vast majority of people only know a handful of their songs that have regularly gotten airplay on the radio, but haven’t heard the bulk of their work and have no idea what The Elder is. The Elder showed Kiss’ musicianship and creativity in putting out a concept album with producer Bob Ezrin who had just finished recording The Wall with Pink Floyd. It’s true a lot of Kiss’ albums are hit and miss, but anyone that truly knows their catalog knows there is more there than they’re ever given credit for. I don’t support Gene Simmon’s branding and merchandising frenzy, but I’m educated enough on Kiss to look past all of that and know they are without a doubt HOF worthy. As a side note, it makes me wonder when someone puts up such a fight to discredit something as John did with Kiss, if he wasn’t one of those kids who got a butt whipping for carrying their Kiss lunchbox to school during the Dynasty era when the fair weather fans deemed it uncool to like Kiss and somehow John’s had a problem with the band ever since. Just a thought.
Ha ha. Very funny. No butt whipping over here for being a KISS fan. Most of the kids I knew were KISS fans in 1976. I never cared about the merchadise. Like Eddie said, try being a KISS fan in 1983! They played the Rochester War Memorial back then. The place held 10,000 people and they had to use a huge curtain to split the place in 1/2, since only a few thousand people showed up. I didn’t care for them by then, so wasn’t there, but like Eddie says, KISS was the most uncool band in the world in the early 1980s.
I still crank up some of their stuff when it comes on. My favorite stuff is the Ace stuff, like “Rocket Ride” and “Shock Me.” Those tunes hold up very well. I think they have some great party anthems like “Shout it out Loud” and “Rock n’ Roll All Nite.” I think everyone here would agree on that. And I like Strutter, Love Gun, Firehouse and a bunch of their early songs. When I was young I also like ELO a lot. When I put on “New World Record” or “Face the Music” now, they still sound great. A lot of the KISS stuff doesn’t sound as good to me.
Influence to me for the RRHOF has to go beyond attitude. and inspiring someone to pick up an instrument. I just don’t see a big difference in music before KISS and after KISS. Bowie and T-Rex got the glam thing going. KISS just jumped on board with it. Judas Priest had been more musically influential. So was Queen.
FWIW – Van Halen sounds more influenced by Allan Holdsworth and Ritchie Blackmore than Eric Clapton. He mentions Clapton, but sounds more like the other two guys. My same point with KISS – everyone mentions them, but in reality not many bands sound like them. I won’t beat this one to death any longer.
Yngwie is very influential and might be the most technically accomplished guitarist around. But I don’t think the body of work is there. It’s deep but very narrow. I think he has wasted a lot of his talent by wanting complete control of everything he does. He could’ve been much bigger had he gotten the right people around him to balance him out. The average rock and roll fan couldn’t name a single Yngwie tune. Only hard rock/metal fans (mainly guitarists) know him. That won’t get him into the HOF.
It is funny that most of these folks that want to talk about musicianship have never picked up a guitar! Just to clarify I said most!
I like ESPN’s Colin Cowherd’s HOF criteria for athletes – you should be able to sum up why they belong in with one sentence. Like Michael Jordan: Greatest Basketball player of all time. Led Zep: Stairway top rock song/most influential band since Beatles. Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon. Done deal. Hendrix: Reinvented rock guitar. He would get in on his Vietnam era “Star Spangled Banner” alone. Total piece of art. Heart: First R ‘n R band led by women/best female rock vocalist ever. What do you say with KISS? Most contrived band. Most 12 year old kids in audience. Did the most with the least. Best merchadisers. With a lot of rock bands in the Hall already it isn’t hard to do.
Rush to me was a compiler. Never the biggest seller, never the most popular. Didn’t really get past their influences much till 1981 – before that they just copied the styles that were popular starting with Zep/Sabbath, then Yes/Mahavishnu/Genesis, then the Police, but Geddy’s voice was so distinctive it gave them an original sound. Plus the great drumming. But I’d put them in for combining progressive music with hard rock and being one of the most adaptable bands ever. Also maybe the best drummer in rock.
Deep Purple: Successfully Fused Classical Music with Heavy Rock. Smoke on the Water. Gotta put ’em in.
And BTW – is it just me, or is Steve Morse the A-Rod of rock? Great individual player but not great on a team. Once he’s in a band they basically jump the shark. I’ve listened to the Dregs and his solo LPs and nothing seems to stick. Didn’t do much with Kansas and Deep Purple has been disappointing with him. Still waiting for Eddie’s review of the DP record. It speaks volumes that he hasn’t reviewed it. I’ll bet he doesn’t have much nice to say about it. The one tune I’ve heard on the radio has been forgettable.
I was watching the rerun episode today with my idol Michael Schenker and was again blown away by that whole show. With the appreciation and props to both Ronnie Montrose and Mark Reale two of my all time favorite artists not to mention Dave Meniketti of Y&T. What I love about TMS is Eddie,Don,Jim always say what we are thinking there is no other show like TMS Period. I have always thought my brain is the same as Eddie’s my favorite album of all time is Strangers in the night hands down then Fire Down Under By Riot these guys are right on when they reference the best of the best. I love this show and these guys for spreading the word!! If anyone reads this and hasnt heard these two legendary recordings do what these guys say go and rock your brains out you wont be sorry!! I am surprised about the top 5 on this particular episode though only Don mentioned UFO’S Force It cd. In my opinion their sophmore offering was a little better pound for pound then Phenonmen. Force it Rocks I think Schenker really kicked ass on this cd. UFO & RIOT = Supreme:)
23 Responses
Kiss has a great presentation, a great gimmick, cool album covers, even the band name is cool. And then there’s music…..that’s where things go downhill. The original band were average musicians at best, which is kind of a shame because their music had the right attitude. Unfortunately, most of their songs get old fast due to the lack of musical skill. I like a handful of their songs, but as a whole, their catalog doesn’t impress me. Kiss is to music what the Ultimate Warrior was to wrestling, great look, so-so to lousy talent. Yeah, they ripped off Alice Cooper’s make-up gimmick, but luckily for Alice, he is a talented (albeit underrated) songwriter and didn’t rely as heavily on ‘look’. Coop, wisely would act out a song on stage, intertwining the music and performance.
Kiss relies heavily on ‘look’ whatever it takes to distract from the music. At this point, Kiss isn’t about putting out quality music (I don’t think they ever were), but it’s about making money off an established name. It’s everything rock and roll shouldn’t be.
Look doesn’t matter when you are at home listening to a CD…..
I think John G is missing the point in regard to influence and HOF merit. Any great musician isn’t going to just “sound like” their influence or mentors, but rather take from that and create something original and their own. So many great bands and members of their respective bands don’t directly sound like who it was that really influenced or inspired them. Quite possibly the best argument for this is Dimebag. Here you have a guy that is generally regarded as the greatest and most influential guitarist of the modern metal era that sounds nothing like Ace Frehley, yet there was a reason Dime was buried in a Kiss casket. The bottom line is the HOF is a joke just in its namesake alone since it covers all genres of music, not just the rock genres. Another thing is to be a sort of HOF level performer, even in a legitimate hall of fame, one can’t look at just musicianship and not really much else. It’s a multi-faceted thing that requires greatness in a number of areas such as the influence thing we spoke of, impact, creativity, innovation, body of work, longevity, album sales, and achievements along the way. Clearly Zeppelin is the gold standard for this criteria and what exemplifies what a hall of fame level band is, but let’s face it, Zeppelin are also in a class by themself. There are certainly a number of other bands that have had their share of the criteria standards I mentioned, but if the HOF adhered to those principles, even if it were exclusively “rock ‘n’ roll” based acts, the HOF would be slim in numbers compared to who they currently have in there. I agree there should be more influence on the musicianship aspect than what’s given; however, it shouldn’t be all that’s really considered either. If so, it would be criminal for Yngwie Malmsteen to not already be in there. In fact, Yngwie fits most of the other criteria and should probably be inducted. Back to the Kiss thing and their music, Kiss has always been one of the most underrated bands for their catalog. The problem is the vast majority of people only know a handful of their songs that have regularly gotten airplay on the radio, but haven’t heard the bulk of their work and have no idea what The Elder is. The Elder showed Kiss’ musicianship and creativity in putting out a concept album with producer Bob Ezrin who had just finished recording The Wall with Pink Floyd. It’s true a lot of Kiss’ albums are hit and miss, but anyone that truly knows their catalog knows there is more there than they’re ever given credit for. I don’t support Gene Simmon’s branding and merchandising frenzy, but I’m educated enough on Kiss to look past all of that and know they are without a doubt HOF worthy. As a side note, it makes me wonder when someone puts up such a fight to discredit something as John did with Kiss, if he wasn’t one of those kids who got a butt whipping for carrying their Kiss lunchbox to school during the Dynasty era when the fair weather fans deemed it uncool to like Kiss and somehow John’s had a problem with the band ever since. Just a thought.
Ha ha. Very funny. No butt whipping over here for being a KISS fan. Most of the kids I knew were KISS fans in 1976. I never cared about the merchadise. Like Eddie said, try being a KISS fan in 1983! They played the Rochester War Memorial back then. The place held 10,000 people and they had to use a huge curtain to split the place in 1/2, since only a few thousand people showed up. I didn’t care for them by then, so wasn’t there, but like Eddie says, KISS was the most uncool band in the world in the early 1980s.
I still crank up some of their stuff when it comes on. My favorite stuff is the Ace stuff, like “Rocket Ride” and “Shock Me.” Those tunes hold up very well. I think they have some great party anthems like “Shout it out Loud” and “Rock n’ Roll All Nite.” I think everyone here would agree on that. And I like Strutter, Love Gun, Firehouse and a bunch of their early songs. When I was young I also like ELO a lot. When I put on “New World Record” or “Face the Music” now, they still sound great. A lot of the KISS stuff doesn’t sound as good to me.
Influence to me for the RRHOF has to go beyond attitude. and inspiring someone to pick up an instrument. I just don’t see a big difference in music before KISS and after KISS. Bowie and T-Rex got the glam thing going. KISS just jumped on board with it. Judas Priest had been more musically influential. So was Queen.
FWIW – Van Halen sounds more influenced by Allan Holdsworth and Ritchie Blackmore than Eric Clapton. He mentions Clapton, but sounds more like the other two guys. My same point with KISS – everyone mentions them, but in reality not many bands sound like them. I won’t beat this one to death any longer.
Yngwie is very influential and might be the most technically accomplished guitarist around. But I don’t think the body of work is there. It’s deep but very narrow. I think he has wasted a lot of his talent by wanting complete control of everything he does. He could’ve been much bigger had he gotten the right people around him to balance him out. The average rock and roll fan couldn’t name a single Yngwie tune. Only hard rock/metal fans (mainly guitarists) know him. That won’t get him into the HOF.
It is funny that most of these folks that want to talk about musicianship have never picked up a guitar! Just to clarify I said most!
I like ESPN’s Colin Cowherd’s HOF criteria for athletes – you should be able to sum up why they belong in with one sentence. Like Michael Jordan: Greatest Basketball player of all time. Led Zep: Stairway top rock song/most influential band since Beatles. Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon. Done deal. Hendrix: Reinvented rock guitar. He would get in on his Vietnam era “Star Spangled Banner” alone. Total piece of art. Heart: First R ‘n R band led by women/best female rock vocalist ever. What do you say with KISS? Most contrived band. Most 12 year old kids in audience. Did the most with the least. Best merchadisers. With a lot of rock bands in the Hall already it isn’t hard to do.
Rush to me was a compiler. Never the biggest seller, never the most popular. Didn’t really get past their influences much till 1981 – before that they just copied the styles that were popular starting with Zep/Sabbath, then Yes/Mahavishnu/Genesis, then the Police, but Geddy’s voice was so distinctive it gave them an original sound. Plus the great drumming. But I’d put them in for combining progressive music with hard rock and being one of the most adaptable bands ever. Also maybe the best drummer in rock.
Deep Purple: Successfully Fused Classical Music with Heavy Rock. Smoke on the Water. Gotta put ’em in.
And BTW – is it just me, or is Steve Morse the A-Rod of rock? Great individual player but not great on a team. Once he’s in a band they basically jump the shark. I’ve listened to the Dregs and his solo LPs and nothing seems to stick. Didn’t do much with Kansas and Deep Purple has been disappointing with him. Still waiting for Eddie’s review of the DP record. It speaks volumes that he hasn’t reviewed it. I’ll bet he doesn’t have much nice to say about it. The one tune I’ve heard on the radio has been forgettable.
I was watching the rerun episode today with my idol Michael Schenker and was again blown away by that whole show. With the appreciation and props to both Ronnie Montrose and Mark Reale two of my all time favorite artists not to mention Dave Meniketti of Y&T. What I love about TMS is Eddie,Don,Jim always say what we are thinking there is no other show like TMS Period. I have always thought my brain is the same as Eddie’s my favorite album of all time is Strangers in the night hands down then Fire Down Under By Riot these guys are right on when they reference the best of the best. I love this show and these guys for spreading the word!! If anyone reads this and hasnt heard these two legendary recordings do what these guys say go and rock your brains out you wont be sorry!! I am surprised about the top 5 on this particular episode though only Don mentioned UFO’S Force It cd. In my opinion their sophmore offering was a little better pound for pound then Phenonmen. Force it Rocks I think Schenker really kicked ass on this cd. UFO & RIOT = Supreme:)