ALTERNATE KISSTORY: TOMMY THAYER, ERIC SINGER AND BRUCE KULICK SPEAK OUT
Brian Hiatt of Rolling Stone reports:
Rolling Stone‘s first-ever KISS cover story mostly focused on the original lineup of the band: Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, Ace Frehley and Peter Criss. The Rock and Hall of Fame also chose to induct only those members – a decision Simmons and Stanley made quite clear that they opposed. They invited current KISS guitarist Tommy Thayer, current drummer Eric Singer and former guitarist Bruce Kulick (who played in the band from 1984 to 1995) to join them at their table for the April 10th ceremony, and thanked them from the stage for their contributions. In that spirit, here are KISStory-spanning conversations with each of those musicians, culled from the cover-story transcripts.
RS: When Eric Carr and Vinnie Vincent wore makeup in Kiss, they had new characters. Did you have any discomfort about simply wearing Ace’s makeup?
TT: No, first of all, I didn’t have any input on that. That was a decision that those guys made. There was not even a conversation about it, because I think it was so obvious, that they weren’t going to introduce new characters 30 years into the band. I never thought that there should be some new designs or something. I thought that would have been ridiculous. And the only thing is, you’ve got a lot of push-back from some of the diehards. And that’s understandable. Hey, you know, if you lived in the Seventies and KISS was your favorite band, and that’s what you grew up with, and suddenly there’s another guy wearing that makeup, I can understand how some people, it might not have appealed to them as much. But as time as gone by, a lot of people have changed their mind.
RS: You can imagine what Ace has to say.
TT: He probably wouldn’t agree with that, would he?
RS: He told me, “A supergroup has one of the most dynamic, greatest lead guitarists in the world leave the band, and who did they hire to play lead guitar? Their road manager, who used to be in a Kiss cover band. How insane is that? You can’t make this shit up.”
TT: [Laughs] You know, that’s one way to… that’s one way to put it, I guess, even though that’s not really accurate. These guys like to say that, oh, he was the road manager. He never paid his dues. Well, you know, if you look back, I’ve been in music professionally for over 30 years now, and I’ve made just as many records as they have, probably. And it’s not to detract from what he’s saying as far as, he was iconic in the Seventies, you know? And he did influence a lot of guitar players, and he did record and write some great stuff. Specifically, the first three or four KISS albums, up to KISS Alive!
RS: He feels that it’s almost like trying to trick people that he’s still in the band.
TT: Yeah. Well, you know, I can understand him saying that, too, but I don’t think that’s really accurate. I don’t think there’s anybody going to a KISS concert thinking that it’s Ace Frehley on stage. I really don’t. And if it is, then they’re really not paying much attention at all. But the vast, 99.99 percent of people that are there, they know what’s going on.
RS: Did you ever play in a KISS cover band?
TT: [Laughs] Yeah, I did, I actually did. One of the guys from Black and Blue, and a couple other friends, we were all KISS fans, obviously, growing up, so back then when Black an Blue had kind of run its course, we said, let’s get onstage at a club in Hollywood and play KISS songs. And this is kind of before tribute bands became kind of common. People went crazy, because nobody had kind of done that thing. And then it was Halloween and for a goof we put makeup on, just for a laugh. And we did that for a while, but it was never like a serious career move or something.
RS: People kind of use this fact against you.
TT: It can be kind of misleading, because it was just for goofs. But then Gene and Paul and the guys came to a few of the club shows we were doing and they got a kick out of it. But I always tell people, it was like the minor leagues or something. It was my segue into KISS, because I think once they finally decided they wanted a new lead guitarist around 2002, they knew I could do it. Because they had known me for a long time, they knew I was quite capable on the guitar, but they also knew I could put KISS makeup on and get onstage and do a great job. So I think, in the back of their minds, I think that might have stuck a little bit.
RS: You [also] worked with Ace and Peter to help them prepare for the reunion tour [in the 90’s].
TT: They were off track and they weren’t playing the stuff in the classic, signature way. So we had to help get those guys back into shape and it took a long time. It wasn’t like it took a week. We spent a month or two working on that, before the actual four of them started rehearsing together as a unit. Ace was a little more on track, and his attitude at the time was a lot more easygoing than Peter’s was, to be honest with you. Peter on the other hand would get more uptight and actually, he would get upset sometimes, with me giving him direction. At least, initially he was, and then he got more comfortable with it once we got going. But I couldn’t believe how upset he got, because he basically said, “Don’t you fucking tell me what to do.”
RS: There was that one show where they had you in makeup ready to go because Ace was so late?
TT: After a while, I did have an outfit, I did have boots, and stuff made and ready, just in case, as an insurance policy really. Because you can’t go on tour, and start canceling shows potentially when there’s millions of dollars on the line. I remember one gig in Irvine, California. I think it was the summer of 2000, and I was completely made up and ready to go because we didn’t think Ace was going to be there. He was in another city still. So twenty minutes before we’re going onstage, we’re all standing there in makeup, and here comes Ace walking in. It was the weirdest thing. He just looked at me, and he goes, “Hey Tommy, how are you doing?'” Like any other day! It was really weird.
RS: How did it start to become clear that Ace might be leaving and you might be taking over?
TT: Well, there were a few more gigs where there were close calls. Finally, the band was scheduled to do this private concert down in Jamaica. Doc called me. He said, “Tommy, you gotta come to Jamaica. You’re going to be on stage, you’re gonna be on.” He goes, “Ace is not coming.” And I was just basically filling in, because I don’t think they knew exactly what they were going to do long-term. But we all knew I was going to go down and do that gig, and step up, and do my first whole, real gig with KISS. And that was really interesting.
RS: You played with KISS for a few years, and then they went off to do the reunion tour. How did you handle that?
ES: I never burned the bridges with Gene and Paul. I never slammed them in the press. But I was mad. I was unhappy about the whole situation, but I’ve always told people, you know, you can’t blame Gene and Paul for doing the reunion. It’s like if I gave you the winning lottery ticket but I said, “You’re going to get the money, but you have to do all this work first.” That’s what it was like for them. You have to do the touring, and I’d have done the same thing. I don’t always agree with the way Gene and Paul do things at times, but I don’t have to agree with them, it’s their band. You hear people say, “Well if you want to do it differently, you have your own band.” That is a true statement.
RS: And then around 2000 you started to come back in the picture. How did that all come to happen?
ES: I started hearing that there were some issues with Peter, but I was busy doing my own thing playing with Alice Cooper. Then one day my lawyer calls me up, I was in Japan, and he says, “Hey, I just got a call from KISS’lawyer and they want you to come back and play in the band.” And I remember I asked him, “So what am I going to do about the makeup? Are they going to have me come up with a new design?” He goes, “They haven’t decided that yet.” And this was the beginning of the week. That Saturday I got home, and he said, “Okay, here’s the deal. The show’s on, they’re just going to have you keep wearing the cat makeup.
RS: And how did you feel about that?
ES: I didn’t really give it much thought. I was like, “OK, whatever.” I mean, honestly, I never looked at it emotionally like some people do. I don’t look at it like it’s sacrilegious. It’s just a band. It’s just music. No offense. And some people say, “You don’t understand, though!” No, I do understand! Because I was a big fan of, not just KISS, but a lot of bands, myself, when I was younger. But then I became a musician, and I have a different perspective. I know what it’s like to be a huge fan, really love a band, and then also know what it’s like to be in that band. And that’s a unique perspective. This is just music. It’s not solving the problems of the world. You know, the most important thing is – I tell everyone – “Look around you. If you have a kid, look at your kid. Look at her smiling. Look at your family.” That’s life. That’s what’s really important. Not what some band does.
RS: So you think people get too upset about this stuff.
ES: I’m sorry, but I just cannot put so much value and importance on what a fucking band does. I’m sorry! And I don’t mean that out of disrespect. If somebody loves a band, and has a passion for it? Great. It’s because of fans having passion that bands have a career. But at the same time, you’ve gotta take a step back and look at the reality, and the reality is, it’s just a band.
RS: Some people see what you and Tommy Thayer do in Kiss now as almost an impersonation.
ES: I know, but here’s the thing that’s ridiculous. I love when people say that, because the reality is, I’m not impersonating. Because I wear the makeup that he wore? Did they come up with their designs? Yes. Of course. But it’s not an extension of their personality. Peter wasn’t a cat. Peter Criss was a cat? They had to create a character. You know something? I don’t know if he even had a pet cat. Come on, it’s ridiculous.
RS: When you were singing Beth in his makeup – how about that? That seemed to freak some people out.
ES: But the thing is, I didn’t go out there and do the same thing he did. I didn’t bring out a drum stool and sit out there with a dozen roses. We did it in a different way. The point is, it’s a KISS song. I love when people try to say, “That’s Peter’s song!” or “This is an Ace song!” No, they’re KISS songs.
RS: You’ve argued that there’s a certain hypocrisy to Ace and Peter’s criticisms of other people wearing their make-up, right?
ES: This is something that I notice that nobody seems to point out. When I came in to play with the makeup, Ace was in the band, and had no problem with me playing with Peter’s makeup while he went onstage and made that KISS money. In fact, he loved it, and he didn’t want Peter back in the band. And then go forward the next year, when Ace decided to leave. When we fast forward, all of a sudden they bring Peter back, and you got Tommy Thayer playing guitar wearing the Ace makeup, and all of a sudden, no one minded it was Ace’s makeup design. Peter had no problem, did he?
RS: How did you feel about the band’s look in your era?
BK: I don’t like to make excuses for the Asylum era. That’s what everybody was wearing! It was ridiculous. Paul, he’s flamboyant with his clothes in any era, okay? So of course he went wild with it, and I fit in the best I could. Gene was lost, completely lost. You know, he buys a sequined, red top from a crazy woman’s shop in Vegas and cuts it up and wears it. I’m like “Come on.” He went through a period there he didn’t know what to do.
RS: Were you bummed that you never got to wear makeup?
BK: When I joined the band they already took it off, the year before. Because they’d kind of reached the point where it was not even that interesting. I was kind of relieved that my whole era I didn’t need to. In the reunion era, I was kind of in panic at times when I was hearing through the grapevine that Ace was potentially going to be exiting. I wondered if they would they ask me, and I was nervous, because what if I left Grand Funk, and then Ace wants back the next year? Who knows? It was stressful, for me. I wasn’t looking forward to becoming the Spaceman if they offered it to me, I’ll be quite honest.
RS: The late Eric Carr was the drummer in KISS when you first joined. How well did he fit in?
BK: He was just, like, not real happy. Usually there were two limos for the gigs, and it was usually Gene and Paul in one and Eric and me in the other, and Eric would just be complaining about various things. And I’d be like, you know, you gotta shut up. You’re killing me. You know how many people would want your gig right now? Every band needs a pecking order – Gene and Paul are kind of like the two presidents, and you’re not gonna get the same power. And I think Eric didn’t know how to fit in with that, just let it kind of bother him, and I just wanted to slap him around. But we became very close. He was the best with the fans, I gotta say. But it drove me crazy that he was that miserable. Now, in time, I got to see what some of the faults are of being part of the band. Things don’t always go down the way you think they might go down. But in general, Gene and Paul run a very, very hard-working, focused kind of band. They’re very dedicated to what they do and how they’re perceived, and how to make it go from A to Z. That might mean your feelings might be hurt to make it happen. So be it.
RS: Then Eric got sick, which must have been awful to deal with.
BK: It was awful. I mean, I was definitely close to him. He really had a valiant fight against a very aggressive, difficult cancer. And it was a really hard time for everyone. It really was. I mean, I was really happy to see him do his last video with us, for God Gave Rock N’ Roll to You with us. And he had more energy than me in that video, even though he was going through the chemo, and he was wearing a wig that really looked like an Eric Carr wig. His hair was always so hair-sprayed and crazy to begin with. The bigger the hair spray, the better. The bigger the hair, you know? “More hairspray! Bring it in.” Eric’s always been a part of my life, just emotionally, but also in some dreams, and some other things that have happened to me. I always feel like he’s been watching over and he’s a part of my life. So I feel very honored that I had that relationship with him.
RS: After Unplugged, how did they break it to you that they were reuniting the original band and that you were out?
BK: We literally just went to Gene’s guesthouse. He just said, “Hey, since Unplugged, this is what’s happened. And we’re gonna do this. We’re probably just gonna do it for a year, but it’s now or never, and we realize we gotta do it.” And I accepted that. But, you know, Eric [Singer] was in denial. He was like, “There’s no way. No way Peter Criss could do this. No way!” I was like, “Uh, dude, they’re gonna do it. They’ll figure it out.” And they did. And they did it well. Obviously, the cracks started to show after some time. And then the machine keeps going. And it’s a big machine, what can you do?
Read more at Rolling Stone.
It is good to get these guys perspective on things. Eric and Tommy sound like they understand their roles in the current version of KISS. And Bruce gives his perspective on what he saw during his tenure in the band. But then, of course, we get the comments of the Gene and Paul haters in the comments section. Why can’t you people just get over yourselves? It ain’t your band! If you don’t like Gene and Paul, the best thing you can do is just ignore them! Don’t participate!! I don’t agree with all of the decisions they have made over the years, but I am a fan and will always be one. They have given me 40 years of (mostly) great music and awesome concerts. The last two records with the current version of the band have been really good. Are they as good as the classic line up albums from the 70’s? No, but they are still solid hard rock that is better than 90% of what is coming out from bands that are 35 or 40 years younger. Why can’t we just be happy that we still have a band that is putting out new music after 40 years? If you don’t like them, don’t buy their shit! But stop bitching about stuff you don’t have a clue about!
Good post, Keith.
We don’t do that here Keith. We bitch, moan, and whine because every band we ever bought a CD or cassette from owes us. When they don’t do what we like, we tell them to pack it in and call it a day…..because we are owed. If your ok with KISS today, then you’re clearly not a fan. You don’t know or appreciate the original line up at all Keith. Essentially Keith you then become a know-nothing loser because you don’t feel your entitled like the others at Trunk Nation do. Yep KISS, Priest, Scorpions, etc should all pack it in and we should listen to the Biebs or Katy Perry now. He’ll I’m waiting for the next Iron Maiden post and someone to comment that if Dianno isn’t in the band, then it’s just not Maiden or fake Maiden as it were. Hell if Michael Anthony ain’t in VH then fuck Eddie Van Halen and his virtuoso-ness. I don’t need it. That’s what we’re all about here Keith. Oh and sometimes we talk about how much Liberals suck too and how if everyone carried a gun we’d all be safer. Shit, then you could go to a concert and shoot anyone in the band you didn’t want on stage.
Ok that post was damn funny.
To replace michael anthony with wolfgang was stupid..
I think the thing most people usually get frustrated with is the hypocrisy of Gene and Paul they open themselves up for plenty of it. Not sure they are producing better stuff than 95% of new bands. Rival Sons, Arctic Monkeys, Black Keys, Wolf Mother, Sasquatch etc. KISS suffer like most bands of that age they have lost the luster or edge of writing/recording. IMO the biggest let down with the last two CD’s was the that the songs are just not that good. You can say that about a lot of those Classic bands though. If Zepplin got together they may produce a turd of a CD. Not really bitching just an honest observation from a Fan of the 70’s/80’s era of KISS. When they write books you see just how flawed and at times stupid they all were. without the safety net of Accouin and others they make some questionable choices at times.
Im reading pauls book now…from his viewpoint, their management team made bad investments on their behalf…caused them to owe millions in back taxes, etc…plus he paints gene as not as business savvy as he thinks he is…you are correct, even our fav rockstars are flawed.
Never forgwet, what is published is published being edited and approved of by the two people who can control the brand, sorry, band. So it is all calculated, nd no wonder does this come out shortly after there was much debate going on again on the net whether ES and TT are imposters or true members of the band. It is rewriting Kisstory again. Everyone can see that, it is a game, it is a business. That’s just how it works, any publicity is good publicity, especially when you are on and about to sell tickets for your upcoming tour.
I saw a 13 year old in a Kiss shirt the other day. He said new bands suck and Kiss rules.
Why are you talking to 13 year olds?
While I enjoy Eric and Bruce’s playing, I do not give a rat’s ass what Tommy, Eric or Bruce has to say about Kiss.
Kiss is Gene, Paul, Ace and Peter.
Agreed, could care less what these guys have to say. The original KISS could have blown the roof off of the Hall of Fame but they let the oppourtunity pass them by. Time will tell but this is one KISS fan that will not be paying to see them when they come to Toronto. Reunite one more time, and end this.
Now there’s an open mind. That flexibility and openness can move mountains.
Sorry but I care….I’m not a huge fan of this version of KISS, but I’m still a fan. When you get their perspective of their story….IMO anyways….it opens up new doors of the way I feel/think. I know a good friend that took over a prominate position for the NY Giants…..he went through a lot of bullshit but proved himself, fans loved him. Same can be said for a lot of positions in the “buisness” world. Every1 can’t be pleased but these are people doing what they love….Joe in The Cuse
Joe, im not a fan of this lineup either..however, at first it was because of the imposters only..but now with two albums out, its clear that the songs just dont hold up, imo…nothing stood out on the albums for me..imo.
Eric in the ‘Ville.
(Couldnt help it..sorry joe for bad pun..lol)
Honestly. the ONLY way that the KISS machine rolls today is with Tommy & Eric. They play solid and they sing solid. They’re professionals onstage and off. They show up on time, the gig goes off without a hitch and the band gets paid. The last four words of previous sentence are the whole story. They’re both rock solid on the road and in the studio. Are they creative …? We may never know, but their songs were the best offerings on Monster. “Take me down below” just sounds creepy knowing a pair of grandpas are singing it. And Eric’s take on KISS being “just a band” … I’ll cut him some slack. It’s a gig man, and a good one.
I prefer the original line-up but hey – I’m an old fart. The funnier fish lately is Paul. He’s the reason I’m done with the band, not the newbies, at least they can still sing & play.
I agree, I can deal with the fact that Ace and Peter will never be back, though it is sad, but I cannot take the crap coming from Gene’s and espeically Paul’s mouth anymore as to how big they still are (no selling out arenas without a double bill!) , how they still give the fans 100% percent (Paul’s voice shot, Gene no loner moving around) when every single clip on YT of the last two years clearly shows that without the two young guys and especially without Eric’s help on vocals (Paul not singing choruses anymore,) they could pack it in.