Brian Hiatt of Rolling Stone reports:
Rolling Stone‘s first-ever KISS cover story mostly focused on the original lineup of the band: Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, Ace Frehley and Peter Criss. The Rock and Hall of Fame also chose to induct only those members – a decision Simmons and Stanley made quite clear that they opposed. They invited current KISS guitarist Tommy Thayer, current drummer Eric Singer and former guitarist Bruce Kulick (who played in the band from 1984 to 1995) to join them at their table for the April 10th ceremony, and thanked them from the stage for their contributions. In that spirit, here are KISStory-spanning conversations with each of those musicians, culled from the cover-story transcripts.
Tommy Thayer:
RS: When Eric Carr and Vinnie Vincent wore makeup in Kiss, they had new characters. Did you have any discomfort about simply wearing Ace’s makeup?
TT: No, first of all, I didn’t have any input on that. That was a decision that those guys made. There was not even a conversation about it, because I think it was so obvious, that they weren’t going to introduce new characters 30 years into the band. I never thought that there should be some new designs or something. I thought that would have been ridiculous. And the only thing is, you’ve got a lot of push-back from some of the diehards. And that’s understandable. Hey, you know, if you lived in the Seventies and KISS was your favorite band, and that’s what you grew up with, and suddenly there’s another guy wearing that makeup, I can understand how some people, it might not have appealed to them as much. But as time as gone by, a lot of people have changed their mind.
RS: You can imagine what Ace has to say.
TT: He probably wouldn’t agree with that, would he?
RS: He told me, “A supergroup has one of the most dynamic, greatest lead guitarists in the world leave the band, and who did they hire to play lead guitar? Their road manager, who used to be in a Kiss cover band. How insane is that? You can’t make this shit up.”
TT: [Laughs] You know, that’s one way to… that’s one way to put it, I guess, even though that’s not really accurate. These guys like to say that, oh, he was the road manager. He never paid his dues. Well, you know, if you look back, I’ve been in music professionally for over 30 years now, and I’ve made just as many records as they have, probably. And it’s not to detract from what he’s saying as far as, he was iconic in the Seventies, you know? And he did influence a lot of guitar players, and he did record and write some great stuff. Specifically, the first three or four KISS albums, up to KISS Alive!
RS: He feels that it’s almost like trying to trick people that he’s still in the band.
TT: Yeah. Well, you know, I can understand him saying that, too, but I don’t think that’s really accurate. I don’t think there’s anybody going to a KISS concert thinking that it’s Ace Frehley on stage. I really don’t. And if it is, then they’re really not paying much attention at all. But the vast, 99.99 percent of people that are there, they know what’s going on.
RS: Did you ever play in a KISS cover band?
TT: [Laughs] Yeah, I did, I actually did. One of the guys from Black and Blue, and a couple other friends, we were all KISS fans, obviously, growing up, so back then when Black an Blue had kind of run its course, we said, let’s get onstage at a club in Hollywood and play KISS songs. And this is kind of before tribute bands became kind of common. People went crazy, because nobody had kind of done that thing. And then it was Halloween and for a goof we put makeup on, just for a laugh. And we did that for a while, but it was never like a serious career move or something.
RS: People kind of use this fact against you.
TT: It can be kind of misleading, because it was just for goofs. But then Gene and Paul and the guys came to a few of the club shows we were doing and they got a kick out of it. But I always tell people, it was like the minor leagues or something. It was my segue into KISS, because I think once they finally decided they wanted a new lead guitarist around 2002, they knew I could do it. Because they had known me for a long time, they knew I was quite capable on the guitar, but they also knew I could put KISS makeup on and get onstage and do a great job. So I think, in the back of their minds, I think that might have stuck a little bit.
RS: You [also] worked with Ace and Peter to help them prepare for the reunion tour [in the 90’s].
TT: They were off track and they weren’t playing the stuff in the classic, signature way. So we had to help get those guys back into shape and it took a long time. It wasn’t like it took a week. We spent a month or two working on that, before the actual four of them started rehearsing together as a unit. Ace was a little more on track, and his attitude at the time was a lot more easygoing than Peter’s was, to be honest with you. Peter on the other hand would get more uptight and actually, he would get upset sometimes, with me giving him direction. At least, initially he was, and then he got more comfortable with it once we got going. But I couldn’t believe how upset he got, because he basically said, “Don’t you fucking tell me what to do.”
RS: There was that one show where they had you in makeup ready to go because Ace was so late?
TT: After a while, I did have an outfit, I did have boots, and stuff made and ready, just in case, as an insurance policy really. Because you can’t go on tour, and start canceling shows potentially when there’s millions of dollars on the line. I remember one gig in Irvine, California. I think it was the summer of 2000, and I was completely made up and ready to go because we didn’t think Ace was going to be there. He was in another city still. So twenty minutes before we’re going onstage, we’re all standing there in makeup, and here comes Ace walking in. It was the weirdest thing. He just looked at me, and he goes, “Hey Tommy, how are you doing?'” Like any other day! It was really weird.
RS: How did it start to become clear that Ace might be leaving and you might be taking over?
TT: Well, there were a few more gigs where there were close calls. Finally, the band was scheduled to do this private concert down in Jamaica. Doc called me. He said, “Tommy, you gotta come to Jamaica. You’re going to be on stage, you’re gonna be on.” He goes, “Ace is not coming.” And I was just basically filling in, because I don’t think they knew exactly what they were going to do long-term. But we all knew I was going to go down and do that gig, and step up, and do my first whole, real gig with KISS. And that was really interesting.
Eric Singer:
RS: You played with KISS for a few years, and then they went off to do the reunion tour. How did you handle that?
ES: I never burned the bridges with Gene and Paul. I never slammed them in the press. But I was mad. I was unhappy about the whole situation, but I’ve always told people, you know, you can’t blame Gene and Paul for doing the reunion. It’s like if I gave you the winning lottery ticket but I said, “You’re going to get the money, but you have to do all this work first.” That’s what it was like for them. You have to do the touring, and I’d have done the same thing. I don’t always agree with the way Gene and Paul do things at times, but I don’t have to agree with them, it’s their band. You hear people say, “Well if you want to do it differently, you have your own band.” That is a true statement.
RS: And then around 2000 you started to come back in the picture. How did that all come to happen?
ES: I started hearing that there were some issues with Peter, but I was busy doing my own thing playing with Alice Cooper. Then one day my lawyer calls me up, I was in Japan, and he says, “Hey, I just got a call from KISS’lawyer and they want you to come back and play in the band.” And I remember I asked him, “So what am I going to do about the makeup? Are they going to have me come up with a new design?” He goes, “They haven’t decided that yet.” And this was the beginning of the week. That Saturday I got home, and he said, “Okay, here’s the deal. The show’s on, they’re just going to have you keep wearing the cat makeup.
RS: And how did you feel about that?
ES: I didn’t really give it much thought. I was like, “OK, whatever.” I mean, honestly, I never looked at it emotionally like some people do. I don’t look at it like it’s sacrilegious. It’s just a band. It’s just music. No offense. And some people say, “You don’t understand, though!” No, I do understand! Because I was a big fan of, not just KISS, but a lot of bands, myself, when I was younger. But then I became a musician, and I have a different perspective. I know what it’s like to be a huge fan, really love a band, and then also know what it’s like to be in that band. And that’s a unique perspective. This is just music. It’s not solving the problems of the world. You know, the most important thing is – I tell everyone – “Look around you. If you have a kid, look at your kid. Look at her smiling. Look at your family.” That’s life. That’s what’s really important. Not what some band does.
RS: So you think people get too upset about this stuff.
ES: I’m sorry, but I just cannot put so much value and importance on what a fucking band does. I’m sorry! And I don’t mean that out of disrespect. If somebody loves a band, and has a passion for it? Great. It’s because of fans having passion that bands have a career. But at the same time, you’ve gotta take a step back and look at the reality, and the reality is, it’s just a band.
RS: Some people see what you and Tommy Thayer do in Kiss now as almost an impersonation.
ES: I know, but here’s the thing that’s ridiculous. I love when people say that, because the reality is, I’m not impersonating. Because I wear the makeup that he wore? Did they come up with their designs? Yes. Of course. But it’s not an extension of their personality. Peter wasn’t a cat. Peter Criss was a cat? They had to create a character. You know something? I don’t know if he even had a pet cat. Come on, it’s ridiculous.
RS: When you were singing Beth in his makeup – how about that? That seemed to freak some people out.
ES: But the thing is, I didn’t go out there and do the same thing he did. I didn’t bring out a drum stool and sit out there with a dozen roses. We did it in a different way. The point is, it’s a KISS song. I love when people try to say, “That’s Peter’s song!” or “This is an Ace song!” No, they’re KISS songs.
RS: You’ve argued that there’s a certain hypocrisy to Ace and Peter’s criticisms of other people wearing their make-up, right?
ES: This is something that I notice that nobody seems to point out. When I came in to play with the makeup, Ace was in the band, and had no problem with me playing with Peter’s makeup while he went onstage and made that KISS money. In fact, he loved it, and he didn’t want Peter back in the band. And then go forward the next year, when Ace decided to leave. When we fast forward, all of a sudden they bring Peter back, and you got Tommy Thayer playing guitar wearing the Ace makeup, and all of a sudden, no one minded it was Ace’s makeup design. Peter had no problem, did he?
Bruce Kulick:
RS: How did you feel about the band’s look in your era?
BK: I don’t like to make excuses for the Asylum era. That’s what everybody was wearing! It was ridiculous. Paul, he’s flamboyant with his clothes in any era, okay? So of course he went wild with it, and I fit in the best I could. Gene was lost, completely lost. You know, he buys a sequined, red top from a crazy woman’s shop in Vegas and cuts it up and wears it. I’m like “Come on.” He went through a period there he didn’t know what to do.
RS: Were you bummed that you never got to wear makeup?
BK: When I joined the band they already took it off, the year before. Because they’d kind of reached the point where it was not even that interesting. I was kind of relieved that my whole era I didn’t need to. In the reunion era, I was kind of in panic at times when I was hearing through the grapevine that Ace was potentially going to be exiting. I wondered if they would they ask me, and I was nervous, because what if I left Grand Funk, and then Ace wants back the next year? Who knows? It was stressful, for me. I wasn’t looking forward to becoming the Spaceman if they offered it to me, I’ll be quite honest.
RS: The late Eric Carr was the drummer in KISS when you first joined. How well did he fit in?
BK: He was just, like, not real happy. Usually there were two limos for the gigs, and it was usually Gene and Paul in one and Eric and me in the other, and Eric would just be complaining about various things. And I’d be like, you know, you gotta shut up. You’re killing me. You know how many people would want your gig right now? Every band needs a pecking order – Gene and Paul are kind of like the two presidents, and you’re not gonna get the same power. And I think Eric didn’t know how to fit in with that, just let it kind of bother him, and I just wanted to slap him around. But we became very close. He was the best with the fans, I gotta say. But it drove me crazy that he was that miserable. Now, in time, I got to see what some of the faults are of being part of the band. Things don’t always go down the way you think they might go down. But in general, Gene and Paul run a very, very hard-working, focused kind of band. They’re very dedicated to what they do and how they’re perceived, and how to make it go from A to Z. That might mean your feelings might be hurt to make it happen. So be it.
RS: Then Eric got sick, which must have been awful to deal with.
BK: It was awful. I mean, I was definitely close to him. He really had a valiant fight against a very aggressive, difficult cancer. And it was a really hard time for everyone. It really was. I mean, I was really happy to see him do his last video with us, for God Gave Rock N’ Roll to You with us. And he had more energy than me in that video, even though he was going through the chemo, and he was wearing a wig that really looked like an Eric Carr wig. His hair was always so hair-sprayed and crazy to begin with. The bigger the hair spray, the better. The bigger the hair, you know? “More hairspray! Bring it in.” Eric’s always been a part of my life, just emotionally, but also in some dreams, and some other things that have happened to me. I always feel like he’s been watching over and he’s a part of my life. So I feel very honored that I had that relationship with him.
RS: After Unplugged, how did they break it to you that they were reuniting the original band and that you were out?
BK: We literally just went to Gene’s guesthouse. He just said, “Hey, since Unplugged, this is what’s happened. And we’re gonna do this. We’re probably just gonna do it for a year, but it’s now or never, and we realize we gotta do it.” And I accepted that. But, you know, Eric [Singer] was in denial. He was like, “There’s no way. No way Peter Criss could do this. No way!” I was like, “Uh, dude, they’re gonna do it. They’ll figure it out.” And they did. And they did it well. Obviously, the cracks started to show after some time. And then the machine keeps going. And it’s a big machine, what can you do?
Read more at Rolling Stone.
source: rollingstone.com
135 Responses
Thayer presents as a grounded, decent guy. Singer, on the other hand, seems to be arrogant and somewhat bitter. Having said that, neither of these guys, in my opinion, deserves to be enshrined into the RRHOF. As much as I dislike the powers that be at the HOF, I thought they nailed it when they said ‘these two guys (Singer & Thayer) are good guys and adept musicians… but they’re simply playing the parts that Ace Frehley and Peter Criss created, and playing the music that Gene, Paul, Ace and Peter wrote/performed and made famous’. KISS was inducted, regardless of what Paul and Gene say, in large part due to their 1974-1978 period as the biggest rock band in the world. The albums KISS thru Love Gun; those are the records and that was the era that earned KISS enshrinement into the RRHOF. Singer and Thayer had as much to do with that era and that music as I did. In other words, not a damn thing. They are playing music written by Ace and Peter. Eric Singer performs Beth in concert now… but it was Criss who wrote (at least in part) and sang that mega-hit song in 1977. It’s a ridiculous argument. When Journey gets inducted will Steve Perry be enshrined, or will it be the Filipino guy who’s now impersonating Perry in “Journey”? Same thing with the KISS situation. Eric Singer is a good drummer, better than Peter Criss to be certain… but Criss is/was a founding member of KISS, and despite his struggles with drugs and his out of control attitude/personality, he contributed significantly to what KISS became in the 1970’s – the biggest rock act on earth for a 5 year period. They way he sang Black Diamond, Hard Luck Woman and Beth was a big part of the definitive KISS sound. Singer is simply impersonating Peter Criss. Impersonating an original is not worthy of enshrinement into a hall of fame. Singer, to me, appears to be jealous of Peter Criss. Eric Singer knows that he’s a far better drummer than Criss… but he also has to know, somewhere in the deep recesses of his mind, that he isn’t 1/3 the “artist” that Peter Criss was in his prime. I hate to quote (paraphrase actually) Jon Bon Jovi, but he once said on Larry King while opining about American Idol; ‘great singers are a dime a dozen… but can you write a song? That’s what separates talented singers from hugely successful artists’. I would say to Eric Singer, “you’re an outstanding drummer, far better than Criss. No one would deny you that… but are you the creative force that Peter Criss was in the 1970’s? Can you write a song like Beth? Did you help to create a phenomenon that took the music world by storm and didn’t let go for a the better part of a decade?” If he answers “no” to those three questions, which is the only answer he could give if being honest, then he has to know that he hasn’t earned enshrinement into the HOF.
Very well said.
Peter wrote only 3 songs his entire time in KISS and by most accounts Bo Ezrin for the most part wrote Beth.
TOMMY THAYER COMES UP TO ME
WHEN I’M WALKING DOWN THE STREET MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS
HE LOOKS ME UP AND HE LOOKS ME DOWN
AND SAYS WHAT BE THIS……..
…AND WHAT BE THAT..
…AND WHY U GOTTA LOOK LIKE THAT?..
…because gene and paul said so..lol
That’s a good one!
LMFAO
Eric Singer:
“I don’t always agree with the way Gene and Paul do things at times, but I don’t have to agree with them, it’s their band.”
See, there you go. It isn’t really “their band”, and furthermore, two people don’t make a band. It’s obvious that Gene and Paul never saw any of the other members, including Ace and Peter as equal band members. They were place holders to prop of their brand. What a crappy way to make music. Honestly, it even makes it hard to enjoy the classic Kiss. What a disappointment.
I can understand where Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer are coming from, but it’s such a shallow position and doesn’t really paint them in the best light. You guys aren’t in a band, you’re in a brand, but I suppose you know that. That’s not what the fans want, but then they also want Paul and Gene to be 30 years younger, and that’s not happening either.
Sure Ace and Peter had problems, and at least Kiss was smart enough to move on in the eighties with new members, taking off their makeup, and pressing forward….not reliving the late 70’s glory years over and over again.
Bruce Kulick sounds like the only one with a clue here, good for him.
How can it not be Paul and Gene’s band? We all know the history of Kiss. Paul and Gene started the band after they quit Wicked Lester. Peter joined, then Ace. Of course it’s their band.
BRUCE KULICK COMES UP TO ME ONE DAY
WHEN I’M WALKING DOWN THE STREET
MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS
HE LOOKS ME UP AND HE LOOKS ME DOWN
AND SAYS WHAT BE THIS……..
(hey isn’t Paul Stanley rapping on ALL HELL’S BREAKING LOOSE).
I always thought he was just talking. Was rap around in ’83?
The Sugar Hill Gang’s “Rapper’s Delight.” which is considered the first rap song to become a hit, was released in 1979. So yes, Rap was around in ’83.
Dana from ET.com 🙂
I know Dana, I was only joking, LOL. I actually remember that song, I always thought it was pretty funny, much like Blondie’s rapture, that song always makes me laugh! The man from mars stopped eating bars, stopped eating cars & now he only eats guitars! (or something like that) LOL! Some old school “rap” I can listen to like that stuff, even though it’s not singing of course, at least it makes you laugh!
Sorry Doug,
I didn’t realize you were kidding-LOL!! Yes, those lyrics were pretty silly. But they were harmless fodder, unlike the Rap lyrics today.
D 🙂
EXACTLY!
Part of the reason Monster sucks so bad. Not everyone pulling in the same direction. Although neither was Psycho Circus, but that CD with all its problems still managed to outsell both Sonic Boom and Monster combined. The sad part is people talk about sales and the music business but if the record is good people will find it.
Honestly the killer guitar player Tony Dallas Reed with the Ace tattoo on his arm as tribute is doing much more important to me heavier than aircraft carrier old school rock in a modern band called Mos Generator…
Oh yeah and a genius singer,,songwriter,,and top flight producer/engineer as well.
Oh yeah and plays ALL INSTRUMENTS in studio in a side gig called STONE AXE
The deal with these 3 is they know they are/were hired guns. When the band started w/the original 4 they were all equal primarily. The A & P left and Vinnie/Eric were brought in. They were given their own characters and contributed creatively so it is understandable that they would have felt they should also be considered full members/equal w/in the band. As we have seen that was not the case. Everyone that has come after was treated basically the same as a session musician, including A & P when they returned for the reunion and beyond. I can understand how they would be aggravated by this due to their prior status in the band and that G & P felt they should be happy w/the table scraps G & P threw their way, despite the band/brands monetary gains from the reunion. So while E & T are probably making decent money as copies of the originals, and don’t tell me they aren’t calculated copies by G & P, otherwise why would the guy dressed as the cat sing Pete’s songs and the guy in the space suit sing Ace’s? I feel bad for Bruce somewhat as he had to suffer through the debacle that was the crazy nights outfits and he generally comes across as cool. But Tommy and Eric are as delusional as Gene/Paul if they think they are as deserving of the RRHOF from a contribution standpoint.
Bruce was a major creative force in the 80s and early 90s but was let down when G and P saw the reunion coming and all the big money again that surely went along with it. Still, he never as far as I know said anything bad about his former employers. maybe he got a big farewell check to compensate, but it must have felt bad. But that is theway this brand works.
Plus wasnt he given full creative control on the COS album?
I think that the overall sound of the COS album is based on Bruce’s guitar playing and his excessive use of phasing and wah effects. That was totally different then to the sound of early Kiss, which is OK. It is was just that it got canned because the reunion took off, but to be honest, I do not think Kiss would have had much success in album sales or selling more tickets than before had this been the next album and the reunion ot happened. People lloking for grungy sounds would have looked elsewehre but not in Kiss, old time fans would have been quite alienated. COS is alot different from its predecessor, Revenge, which has some sililar elements of sound or songwriitng, but still overall is a straightforward rock’n roll album. So I guess COS would have meant the next step towards having to call it quits. Still, Bruce’s guitar playing remains the best Kiss has ever seen, at least from the standpoint of technique and versatility.
ah typing too fast …
Lookingback, its easy to see that P/G “scrapping” the COS project in favor of a reunion was a huge shot in the arm the band needed..not only did they cash in $$-wise but made them relevant enough so that they are still reaping the rewards to this day..its ironic, when u look back..at one point taking off the makeup was necessary to move forward..and years later, putting back on proved necessary as well…IMO
I appreciate Bruce Kulick’s straightforward and candid comments, and above all, lack of bitterness. The albums he played on may not have been Kiss at their best, but Bruce comes off as a genuine good guy, with a rare amount of humility given the stature of the band he once played for. I love Ace’s best work, Vinnie did well with the band when they could co-exist, and Tommy is also a good player limited by mostly uninspired material. Nice to see Bruce getting his voice heard a bit as his playing helped bridge an important gap in Kisstory. I especially like his work on Revenge, when Kiss got back on track in my opinion.