Wanted to post earlier today but we had to actually upgrade our server because of all the activity on the site this weekend (thanks webmaster David for your help!). Now that Gene and Paul have weighed in on the HOF drama of the weekend we have a pretty clear picture on the eve of tickets going on sale that Kiss is not playing at all now in any form. Clearly they had to make some statement here after all the fallout from Ace on my radio show Friday night and Peter’s statement yesterday. So now that all sides have weighed in here is MY analysis of all of this for those interested as far as what has gone on.
Gene and Paul were never going to play with Ace and Peter at this event. Just wasn’t ever going to happen. Look no further than Paul’s official Twitter a few weeks ago when he essentially said as much. Ace, Peter, and MANY members of the HOF I spoke to over the last few weeks confirmed they wanted to play with the current band and had no intention of an originals reunion. The Kiss statement saying “we don’t believe the memory will be enhanced” in playing with Ace and Peter really translates to Gene and Paul not wanting to open a can of worms, and honestly likely not thinking they can cut it with them anymore. They know this can’t be a jump up and jam thing. They need to rehearse and prepare to do it right. That would require them reconnecting for a few days. That opens cans of worms so to speak. So they were never going to go down those roads with the original band. In their view too complicated and just like at MTV unplugged, it would make it very hard to continue to sell what they are now doing afterwards. Ace, Peter and the HOF didn’t just make it up that they didn’t want to play with them. Perhaps they would have allowed Ace and Peter to come up at the group jam at the end, but Gene, Paul, Peter and Ace alone on stage playing a song was something Gene and Paul were never going to allow or have happen. To them it’s complicated on way too many levels. So once Ace and Peter released their statements Gene & Paul’s only way out of the backlash was to check out of playing all together which they did today. And you know what? No matter how this was arrived at it is the best available scenario given they won’t play with the original band. Since the original four are being inducted out of respect no performance is better than Ace and Peter having to watch the current band. I think this also makes it likely (but far from 100%) that everyone at least shows up and speaks. So what we hopefully end up with is a photo op of the original guys, a few words from each, then some sort of all star Kiss tribute band or video package. The HOF will now have to figure that out. But I can tell you this is a victory of sorts for Ace and Peter who now may attend and will not feel dissed having to see personas they created playing at their induction. But it is clear, and I have confirmed with many over the last month involved with the HOF, that Gene and Paul would not play with only the original band at this event. The HOF wanted that, Ace and Peter were up for it (as Ace said on my show when first announced as going in) but Gene and Paul would not have it and wanted to play with the current band. Again, Paul said “very unlikely” over a month ago on Twitter when asked about a reunion and “no way” to them wearing makeup. So where this is all coming from should not be a surprise. It’s pretty clear and honestly it is Gene & Paul’s right at this point, even if you disagree strongly with it. They own Kiss like it or not. To me anything else is spin and damage control at this point. But again, to me, this is the second best scenario given only the originals are being inducted. At least it gets them all there hopefully!
A few other things; do Gene and Paul attend? They say in their statement they will “celebrate” the induction but that doesn’t always mean show up. I would assume they would, but none of the original four have clear cut said yet “we will be there”.
Clearly Gene and Paul are annoyed (and you can make the case rightfully so) that only the original four are being inducted. However their statement left out Vinnie Vincent (a HUGE contributor to Kiss comeback of the 80’s) and the late Mark St John. We all know Kiss and Vinnie had their issues, but if they truly wanted to celebrate KISStory completely Vinnie would certainly at least deserve an invite and mention? I have said all along I think it had to be only the original guys or EVERYONE who was in Kiss to do this right. Kind of hard to pick and choose. The HOF decided only originals. So when they said in their statement “the entire history”, they are still leaving out some gaps.
And that’s another issue. Kiss in their statement continue to allude to all the success they have had without Ace and Peter. Relatively speaking that is true. But you can not discount the fact that the bands biggest periods by far were with the original band. The 70’s were most iconic, then the 90’s reunion was equally huge. Who knows if Ace and Peter didn’t do the reunion tour in ’96 if there would even still be a Kiss today? Reunions happen because bands need them and they are much bigger than whatever that band is doing at the time. Nobody does a reunion tour because it means less people or interest. Current Kiss does very well in festivals and some parts of the world. But to say in America the band is as big as ever (as I have heard stated) is just false. The last full US tour was a CO HEADLINE. You don’t go 50/50 with another band unless you need the help. On the flipside it is without question true that Gene and Paul have kept this alive for 40 years and steered the ship (with good and bad decisions in my view), so without that commitment who knows what would have happened? There were several versions of Kiss. I was a fan of many. But the simple truth is nothing was or will be bigger than the original four guys. That is just fact if you really take in the history.
If the HOF had decided to induct all the members then for sure the case could be made that everyone plays. But they decided to induct the four that started it all only. It sucks for us fans that the powers that be here wouldn’t make that work for at least a song or two, but I think where we arrived at today with no performance is the second best scenario. Now let’s see if they all show, who does the induction (I know but can’t say!) and what the HOF does as a tribute. It’s been a wild weekend since Ace started this with his announcement on my radio show late this past Friday night (audio on the home page) and where we go from here should be interesting as well. I’ll be live on SiriusXM channel 39 6-10P ET tomorrow and will take your calls. That’s MY take, look forward to yours here on the site or on the radio.
Oh, one last thing. Much has been made about the impact all of this will have on sales to the event tomorrow. The timing here was key since MANY were going to come from around the world assuming a performance by the original band one last time. So clearly it’s great those people now know the deal. I think it will for sure change the dynamic of the crowd makeup in the building that night. But as long as the original four show up I’d say a good showing from Kiss fans will be there. But nothing like if it was a reunion performance. Also remember there are many other bands being honored that night. Nirvana and Springsteen also have pretty big bases. So I suspect ticket sales will be just fine when that is all factored in. I’m sure there will be much more to discuss. Never dull being a Kiss fan!
185 Responses
Gene and Paul have ignored what their fans have wanted going on 30 years now. The biggest mistake Ace and Peter made was not holding the reunion tour hostage 10 minutes before they were supposed to go on at Tiger Stadium. Gene in a money grubbing bastard and they only way to get to him is through his money. It was ridiculous that the Reunion Tour was not a four-way split and that Ace and Peter were hired hands. It could not have gone on without them, and Ace and Peter should have shoved in their faces stating “no 25% each, we don’t go on!”. Gene and Paul have disrespected everybody else who has played in the band. They have no consideration for their fans. They took a crap on what their fans wanted back in 1979, and they have not looked back since.
Yeah. They should have played hardball! That’s the ticket! Hindsight is 20/20, and you should change your screen name to Monday Morning Quarterback. They could have held out at Tiger Stadium…and would have been in breach of contract, and would have achieved NOTHING.
Let me clear up a few things…Ace and Peter weren’t playing for charity. They were playing for money.
1. Peter left, or was fired. He took the cash at the time. And, yes he signed over the rights to the make up. He could have kept his rights to the make up, but he didn’t. Why? He wanted cash! By the way, Peter could have left after the Reunion, too. But, he didn’t. Why? He wanted the CASH!
2. Ace left. He signed the deal and took the cash. Ace came back and signed the deal.
3. Don’t you remember Peter complaining when he found out Ace was paid more? If you don’t recall you can read it in his book.
4. Since you mention 1979, how Gene & Paul “took a crap” on the fans…Where was Peter for Dynasty and Unmasked? He was so drugged up and drunk that he couldn’t make it to the recording sessions. I don’t understand why anyone would stand up for him in any of this. It’s not like he apologized to us, the fans, in his book. He goes even farther…He refers to Ace as lazy and a chronic masterbator. He outs him as bisexual. Is that okay with you??? He strongly implies that Paul is gay. Why? Because he won’t go out drinking with Peter. Oh, and Gene smells and is controlling. What a loser.
Why are Gene and Paul the greedy bastards in all of this? Ace & Peter took the cash. Nobody made them do it. They have free will, which they exercised in drugs, drink and loads of other bad choices. Those were their CHOICES to make.
Explain to me, why is it Gene & Paul’s responsibility to make right for the mistakes that Peter and Ace have made? Again? Why would they want to raise expectations that their might be another reunion? They don’t. It has nothing to do with Bruce & Eric being booed at Unplugged. That is spin. Nothing more.
Great post, John!
Yep…great post. As much as I’m dismayed over the RRHOF fiasco, as much as I feel Gene and Paul should have checked their egos, even swallowed their own bile for one night…not for Peter or Ace but for the fans, I agree totally with what you are saying.
Just so many chances these guys have had to participate and it always comes down to money. Peter and Ace had free reign to say whatever they wanted for the upcoming documentary but again, $$$ got in the way.
One other thing people need to know about the Reunion tour…Peter and Ace were guaranteed 2 mill apiece. They didn’t incur any production costs, travel expenses, hall rental, insurance costs, crew salaries, on and on etc… Tours aren’t free and once all the bills were paid, then Gene and Paul made their nut. Further…and many won’t believe this (perhaps Ed will confirm) most promoters were not willing to give Kiss the guarantee’s they were asking. As they believed the band dead makeup or not…afterall the Revenge tours plug was pulled. Nearly every large promoter in this country said…no thank you, we’re not going to pay you that. So what Gene and Paul did was risk everything and agreed with all the promoters to do a 90/10 split…meaning in laymans terms if the band sold 90% of the door the promoter would get 10% of the take. If they didn’t sell 90%, the band made only 10%. That’s a very dangerous contract…one that could have bankrupted Gene and Paul had the tour not gone gangbusters. A lot of legendary promoters thought the band would fail, they simply underestimated what the makeup meant and Kiss took them to the cleaners. Regardless of all this…Pete and Ace were guaranteed 2 mill whether the tour was a success of failure. So from playing small dives and no contracts and certainly very little money…Ace and Pete went from the poor house to the rich house in a matter of a few months. Musta been tough on them counting all that dough.
The most insightful post I have read so far; congratulations.
However, fanboys will be fanboys. They prefer to be living in a bubble and not face the cold reality of two money-hungry LOSERS that still milk the KISS titties after 30+ years.
Pathetic.
Wow John . Sounds like you were there during all the contract negotiations. Thats awesome ! Can you clue us in on more ?
This is all about the Makeup Kiss being inducted into the HOF not about a potential reunion tour or the mistakes Peter and Ace may or may not have made.
$immons & $tanley should thank their lucky stars every night for Ace & Peter even trying out for the band in 72 ( because without the formula and dynamic that those 4 created, the only ones that would have been successful musicians solo would have been Paul and Ace ……
$tanley & $immons should also thank their lucky stars thats Ace & Peter came in back in 96 to help sell arena’s again and setting the stage up for even being able to put the makeup on other guys…. If $immions and $tanley ever tried that without Ace & Pete initially , they would have been a laughing stock ……….. Even though they became one’s anyway now by musicians, former fans and , the industry.
If it wasn’t for Pete & Ace in 96 the other two ass clowns would be playing theaters now just like Ace. Thats a fact/
Eddie
Here’s what stood out the most on $tanleys comments :
“The only people who would complain, I think, are people who don’t really follow the band at this point.
“The myth that sometimes surrounds the original lineup is purely myth. Some of it was of our own doing. The whole projecting the idea that it was four guys giving equally. Quite honestly, it was kind of our take on THE BEATLES: four guys that spend all their time together and run down the street jumping up in the air. But it’s not a reality. And maybe part of the problem was that some of the guys in the band really bought into believing it.
“The band always had two people who were leading it and the idea that anybody is entitled to having songs on an album is crazy.”
“The only people that complain are the ones that dont follow the band anymore” ???????
Thats because you’ve insulted so many of the old Kiss army they’ve said ” screw you ” But, you dont care . We realize you couldn’t work with Ace & Pete anymore in 2000 but ya didn’t have to dress up the other guys and insult them and all the fans that made you !!
The 2nd thing he states that I find very insulting is $tanleys statement : “and the idea that anybody is entitled to having songs on an album is crazy.”
Are you serious Paul ????????
Eddie. Can you believe this statement from Paul ? Am I reading it wrong ?? Thoughts ?
You’re reading it wrong.
Here’s my thought – You’re an idiot.
I met Peter in 1994 in a club in Augsburg, Germany during one of his solo tours. He summed it up back then as it is today – “Its not Kiss anymore, its the Gene and Paul band.”
Did he have coke residue under his nose and a beer in his hand at the time?
And yet never had a problem doing the Kiss reunion.
Or did he join the Gene and Paul band?
PS…..Get Frank Marino on TMS!!!!
I thought I heard in the news today that the Secretary of Defense will scall back the KISS Army to pre-WWII levels.